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How a Firing Led Josh Leng to Launch Talk Media Network

What I put into action was a plan that I had been thinking about for years and wasn’t going to act on for another 5-10 years after I had enough experience working at different radio stations, in larger markets, as you climb the ladder in your career.

Ryan Hedrick

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A photo of Josh Leng with the Talk Media Network logo
(Photo: Talk Media Network)

At a recent industry event, the CEO of Talk Media Network, Josh Leng, observed the presence of a new generation of skilled executives dedicated to expanding the news/talk radio format and improving the radio industry.

As a former experienced officer in the Air Force, Leng values building relationships, and his successful plan for his syndicated radio company is a testament to that.   

During the period shortly after being laid off and facing a non-compete agreement, Leng created TMN from the ground up. He established strong brands based on the knowledge and experience of successful industry professionals.

Leng began his career as a producer for well-known stations, including KFI-AM 640 in Los Angeles, WBAL-AM 1090 in Baltimore, KNST-AM 790 in Tucson, and WOOD-AM 1300 in Grand Rapids. Later, he went on to program 790 KNST, 1340 WJRW, 1240 WJIM, 1490 WKLQ, Michigan Media Network, and the Michigan Talk Network.  

During a recent interview with Barrett News Media, Leng shared his positive outlook on the future of Talk Media Network. He also discussed the lack of creativity and talent development at the syndicated level, explained how he successfully turned around ratings and revenue at his former station KNST and highlighted the essential qualities he utilized when launching his syndication network 13 years ago.   

Ryan Hedrick: Can you explain the contrast between being a program director and managing your own network?  

Josh Leng: The radio station already has a presence and a roster or a lineup in each market, and it’s about your imaging and engagement with your community and improving the lineup as best you can.

With a network, a start-up network, you’re building everything from the ground up. While our audience is still the listener, as a network or a syndication head, I am marketing to radio stations. I am marketing to those decision makers that sat in the PD chair, OM, general manager, or owner chair, who decide what’s the best fit in their community.   

RH: As the former program director at KNST in Tucson, you achieved a significant turnaround for the station. Can you share what factors contributed to this success?  

JL: I was asked to observe and learn for the first six months that I was there, and then I was given the latitude to make a lot more changes. My OM wanted me to get to know and understand the community and how it was unique. There are a lot of things that translate well to a news/talk station, no matter where it’s located in the country.   

With KNST, it was being challenged by an upstart FM news talker that had pulled programming from KNST and KVOI in the market that had established listenership and following. [The turnaround at KNST] was about fighting back. Up until I was given the reins and latitude to make decisions, the FM news talker, which had been programmed by Andrew Lee and Jon Justice, was stealing core listeners from KNST. That’s what really needed to be turned around.   

A lot of it was lineup improvement and imaging, and also taking a vocal role myself in the morning show to help bring a balance of ideas and opinions to the show that wasn’t there before, which would help better connect with our P1s. 

Our biggest move was that talk radio had a high engagement with the Tea Party, and we did help promote and were a significant presence at a major Tea Party event. We put on a book signing event with Sheriff Joe Arpaio, which was front-page news in the local newspaper because of the protests that were occurring outside, where they were physically beating Sheriff Joe Arpaio pinatas in the parking lot. You can’t pay for that kind of marketing.   

RH: KNST was an AM station with a strong community connection. The topic of discussion lately has been the AM band. Do you still believe in the effectiveness of AM radio?  

JL: I believe in radio in general, Ryan. In that, wherever there is great content, no matter which band it’s distributed on, listeners will find it and build habits around it when well-marketed.

The health of a band relies on all the stations that are programmed on that band. The more reasons that a listener has to be on that band, the more it will be used. Not to say that an FM translator isn’t a piece of valuable radio real estate.

The majority of listeners are not cumeing AM radio. That may be because they have an FM translator, they have an FM simulcast, or they haven’t built that habit and awareness yet.  

Platforms now in a well-led station will not be focused on AM or FM, but they will meet every listener where they are on the platform they want to be met on. A great radio station will also have streaming, they’ll also have podcasts, it’s about getting their content in front of their audience in the manner that they want to consume.

I think that radio stations that are planning comprehensively will be successful in the long term.   

RH: What do you think about individuals who criticize the radio industry after losing their jobs? Does this negatively affect the image of the industry?  

JL: That is an astute observation. There was one host, who I won’t name, that I had a great national relationship who was never syndicated by TMN. When he was getting ready to leave talk radio, he chose to go podcast only. I was very disappointed that he was walking over the bridge to leave what I considered was a successful and invaluable show, that he set the bridge on fire and tried to burn radio down on his way out.   

Radio had given multiple decades of success to that host. Yes, things change, that’s the one constant, and you may have to evolve and adapt to a degree, but how can you turn like that?

I don’t think a bitter host is good to have on the air. In one sense, I’m glad that those true colors of that individual have been shown because if they truly loved radio, they would still be passionate and positive about it.   

RH: As a radio professional, you have experienced being fired. Considering the non-compete holding you back, you persevered and established Talk Media Network. Can you share how you managed to maintain your focus and turn a negative situation into a positive outcome?  

JL: What I put into action was a plan that I had been thinking about for years and wasn’t going to act on for another 5-10 years after I had enough experience working at different radio stations, in larger markets, as you climb the ladder in your career. It just so happened with the circumstance that I was put in that I decided to sharpen that plan and put it into action earlier than I had originally thought.   

RH: When creating a blueprint for running a radio syndication company, what essential pieces are you incorporating to ensure your success?  

JL: The first two and a half years, there was a lot of show development, marketing assistance, from the standpoint of preparing a show for syndication or improving a show that’s in syndication that needs a variety of better marketing materials, better show clock, better show demo, better imaging and positioning statements, and host development and coaching.   

RH: How reliable are radio ratings when it comes to promoting your syndication company to clients and advertising agencies?  

JL: Ratings and data allow you to have a selling point, but your data does not have to be Nielsen ratings solely. As a station, you have your streaming numbers, unique visitors, and session lengths. I just had a meeting this week where there’s polling and survey data that has been crunched that is given a de facto rating, not in a Nielsen sense, to radio stations to know how engaged those listeners are.

This was just a sample, but what it proved was how much it could move the needle, with a four-week campaign, with a control group, and with a campaign on the other stations. You may be surprised that the biggest stations don’t always move the needle the most.   

A medium to smaller-sized market or station with great programming and high engagement may be the one that will, on a cost-per-dollar basis, get a better result for an advertiser.

We are using that information going forward to help whom we market our shows on a priority basis. More non-Nielsen data will be coming forward not only in syndication but also in marketing radio stations.   

RH: Can you provide your perspective on distinguishing between a highly skilled local host and a national talk show personality that you might consider adding to your network?  

JL: I have the great honor of working with many talented, highly respected professionals in the talk radio industry. You know when you hear (talent) come through the speakers when a host is different or in a league of their own.

I wouldn’t say that certain hosts are destined to be local hosts for their entire careers. They can grow and they can develop. There are talented talk hosts in major markets that could be on national radio, but they have lucrative contracts to be at the station in the market they are in; there is nothing wrong with that.  

Network radio is here to provide great content at the times and in the areas where stations are not able to provide that locally. Our bar needs to be set as high as possible because our decisions don’t affect just one station like a PD. They can affect hundreds or thousands of stations.   

RH: Do you consider the actions of other syndication companies, such as Premiere Networks or Westwood One, when making decisions for Talk Media Network?  

JL: I have not seen a lot of innovation in the last 17 years at the network syndication level. There have been a lot of safe calls. Companies making the easier choice which I don’t believe is necessarily the best talent. Or they are just refeeding best-of-hours instead of staying live with original programming.

Our goal is to be as live as possible as much as possible at Talk Media Network. I do believe that a number of the talents that have been shown the door by other networks were put to pasture by other networks either because of cost-cutting or ageism.   

RH: What are your reasons for being optimistic about the future of Talk Media Network?  

JL: Our roster continues to grow and become stronger every year. Recently, a couple of stations came to add one show, and that station left with 16 shows. Another radio station we needed to communicate with about a clock change went from airing 10 hours of our programming to airing 73 hours a week.

We’ve grown by hand, a majority of our affiliate clearances. It’s relationship building. We’ve only continued to gain momentum.   

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Reevaluating the Relationship Between the Donald Trump Trial and News/Talk Radio

The Trump Derangement Syndrome folks care, and those rocking MAGA hats care, but the majority of the population is not nearly as interested as the news media makes this out to be. 

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A photo of Donald Trump
(Photo: CNN)

Donald Trump is news. But this is not 2016. Both those things can be true at the same time.

When Donald Trump burst onto the scene in 2015, there was nothing like him in modern political history. The billionaire businessman turned media superstar turned frontrunner for President of the United States. We had never seen anything like this in American history.

But it’s 2024. Donald Trump spent four years in office and had a tumultuous end to his term. The American people have suffered through four years of Joe Biden, and now we’re set for the rematch no one really wanted, but it seems like the rematch America deserves.

Now, Donald Trump finds himself in and out of a courtroom. And based on the media’s coverage across the political spectrum, you’d think it was 2016, not 2024. 2024 Donald Trump is not 2016 Donald Trump. Athletes, musicians, and celebrities all lose their shine over time. That doesn’t mean Donald Trump can’t be an effective President if re-elected. He can be. However, the level of general public interest is not where it was nearly a decade ago. 

Yes, it’s a big deal that an ex-President, who also happens to be the 2024 GOP nominee, is a big deal, but the media’s attempt to turn it into O.J. Simpson 2.0 and “The Trial of the Century” is comical.

Every morning, I see cable news with a little box showing Donald Trump’s black SUV as people anxiously await his transportation to the courthouse. 

No. One. Cares. 

To be fair, I shouldn’t say that. The Trump Derangement Syndrome folks care, and those rocking MAGA hats care, but the majority of the population is not nearly as interested as the news media makes this out to be. 

Part of this is because the state of New York and the Department of Justice have incessantly weaponized the law to hammer Donald Trump with lawsuit after lawsuit. People can’t keep track and don’t care enough to. They’ve formed their opinions of Donald Trump, and at this point, there’s little to no curiosity left from the public as to who he is, what he’s about, and whether or not they like him. They’ve made up their mind.

So, if you’re a local host, what’s the play? 

It’s a news story, but you’re not cable news. Spending quarter-hour after quarter-hour obsessing over Donald Trump’s latest courthouse proceedings like you’re FOX News or MSNBC is not the move. Letting your top and bottom-of-the-hour national newscasts (assuming you have them), handle that story, while you inform and entertain your audience based on the happenings in their backyard, brings you closer to them, and vice versa.

Because if you play the hits based on cable news, why wouldn’t your bosses pipe in syndication? What are you bringing to the table at this point? Not much that can’t be done by the plethora of national hosts, many of whom will have resources and connections into the national political scene for perspective that you may not be able to provide.

I’m not trying to discourage you from discussing the trial; I’m just making sure you put it into perspective and use your microphone effectively to inform and entertain your audience about issues that impact their day-to-day lives. That’s why you’re there. And it’s the job you’ve been hired to do. And ultimately, your audience will appreciate you for it. 

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Radio is Ready for an AI Revolution

We need to step back and ask ourselves one question: would it really be a tragedy if radio as we know it were to change drastically?

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I’m an optimist. I insist on it. I don’t like being sad or angry and I sure as heck have no right to inflict my pissy moods on you or anybody else. Nobody likes whiners.

It’s not easy being optimistic all the time, especially now. The pessimists of social and mainstream media are just waiting to dump a load of misery on us every morning.

I see a lot of this in our industry, too, especially from those who worry that Artificial Intelligence is going to end news, talk, and music radio as we’ve known it.

We need to step back and ask ourselves one question: would it really be a tragedy if radio as we know it were to change drastically?

No, far from it. It will be progress in every sense.

Everybody who’s worried about the end of radio is either currently or previously employed in the business. Nostalgia is a nice place to visit but you can’t live there. If you spend a lot of time grieving change you’re going to end up sitting on the porch watching life pass you by without bothering to wave.

Those of you still working in the business are rightly concerned about your future. You need to make plans. We graybeards on the outside looking in are saddened by the loss of our glory days, increasingly forgotten in a world reimagined.

If progress teaches us anything it’s to expect change. The only way to think outside of the box is to burn the box.

Radio as we know it can only target audiences with a shotgun. We can play music of a specific genre and aim talk topics and perspectives to specific demographics but there’s no way to be all things to anybody. You won’t like some of the songs I play or many of the topics I choose to discuss. AI radio will change that. Listeners will be able to choose the content they want to hear. We’ll all be able to make our own music playlists and select news subjects and discussions of topics of specific interests.

Choosing your music sounds something like Spotify, doesn’t it? Have you heard its AI DJ? Seriously, take a moment to read and hear Spotify’s AI deejay. It will give you an early sense of the future of radio. It’s available right now but it’s only the beginning.

Very soon you will be the programmer of your AI radio station. Who’s your deejay? You decide. You’ll select an entire lineup of jocks by dayparts if you like and they won’t all just be pretty voices created by AI. With legal approval, you might have voice-cloned radio Hall-of-Famers. Pick a celebrity, they’ll have their vocal likenesses signed into contracts.

Or, you can do mornings, yourself. You only have to allow the app to get a voice print. Oh, and don’t forget to program topics you’d like to hear on demand: Weather, for example. And traffic, of course, and local events. This is not only conceivable, it’s being developed right now.

News via AI seems like it would be complicated but omg, you’ll finally be able to hear a full spectrum of reports and views to give you a much deeper understanding of current events than we get with the limitations of radio and TV as we know it.

Pick a topic and learn to understand the difference between fact and biased implication. We’ll learn to explore our own beliefs. Once listeners get a taste of the big picture sneaky biases will be replaced by accurately labeled opinions and ignorant social media trolls will be kicked into the gutter. We’ll finally be able to discuss things nicely with a greater depth of knowledge.

Just imagine: personalized music, news, conversations, ideas, and thought-provoking philosophies will be yours for every mood and whim.

This isn’t going to be free, is it? Yes, or no. I expect we’ll have tiers of choice ranging from free with ads, to no commercials for a premium price.

But the original question still hasn’t been answered: would it really be a tragedy if news, talk, and music radio as we know it were to change drastically?

Tragedy? No. It will be bittersweet for those of us who love to remember our good old days but as listeners, it will be a nearly perfect experience. We’ll hear what we want to hear when and how we want to hear it.

We old farts will still miss the wacky deejay days but let’s be honest, those memories are more about a time in our lives than the spirited colorings of hit-and-miss deejay patter. And there’s no reason to assume that AI can’t provide personality as part of its content excellence.

Nor will live radio end altogether.

Live and local radio will survive in the world of AI information and entertainment because there will still be individual owner-operators who insist on it and will adapt their business models. The tall towers behind brick studios will be gone but live human content will be created and streamed from homes, cafes, and on the streets of Everytown, USA. It will remain a huge part of our social fabric.

After 54 years in the business, I still love driving back roads and searching “the dial” for small-town radio where I can hear local people talking about local things. Today in small towns I’m much more likely to hear the same syndicated shows airing in hundreds of markets than passionate beginners learning their craft.

Like many of you, I miss my good old days, too, but that’s how life works. We need to get off the porch and embrace progress.

Radio will never be what it once was, it never has been. It has always gotten better.

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Sam Matheny Reflects on Another Successful NAB Show

“We do a lot of research and development and early-stage engineering projects to explore what some of the possibilities might be.”

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(Photo: Sam Matheny)

As the industry marvels at the latest innovations coming to a TV or radio station new year CTO and Executive Vice President at the NAB, Sam Matheny believes there is one outstanding figure: Artificial Intelligence.

Matheny noted speaker Hao Li’s company Pinscreen as one of the most innovative. “Li has a company called Pinscreen, they’re talking about instead of just dubbing it and offering a different language. You can actually manipulate the video to make it look as if that person is speaking that language. So you’re not distracted by it.

“Now, I think that is more important in an entertainment and movie or television show environment than it would be necessarily in a news environment. But the underlying, I’m going to take one language, I’m going to instantly translate it to 19 other languages. Not only can I provide it as a ticker text, but then I can do a speech-to-text back, or a text-to-speech back and provide it in my native tongue. That is really exciting.”

However, he does have concerns about AI being misused by the media saying, “Absolutely. I mean, it’s a tool, right? And it’s it’s all about how you use it. If you were a bad actor or a nation-state or, someone who wanted to sow discontent, you could absolutely use AI in that way. And for us as broadcasters, we have to be and already are exceptionally aware of that.” He added verifying information and maintaining content provenance is key to good reporting.

Matheny’s North Carolina roots in local news showed him what good reporting looks like and also exposed him to the importance of local media. His grandfather published the local paper in Zebulon and had a radio show which aired across the state. Matheny believes his family roots in media gave him a unique perspective on the industry.

“I think what it gave me was two things one was going back to the real appreciation of the importance of local media and accurate information. The notion of being able to reach people, to be enabled, to communicate with them, to entertain them.”

As technology has grown, Matheny has seen smaller and more local outlets closer their doors. Preventing this is something the NAB is “very focused on.” While technology may help small outlets stay open, Matheny believes there is a second prong not being as closely monitored to aid outlets from closing.

“What it requires is, what I’ll just call business and regulatory innovation. It requires a willingness to say that this is important, and we have to ensure that we have a regulatory and business environment that enables these local outlets to succeed.”

There are other innovations outside of AI, Matheny is keeping his eye on, including better sound and better visual quality. “It may evolve into a more 3D type of experience. Or at least a 180-type view as opposed to today. Everything is on a flat screen. And I think the most famous example of that right now is the Sphere as a place that you can go in Las Vegas and experience a new type of viewing.”

Another innovation was spatial computing. “I just call it facial computing. And it’s the idea that I have to put this thing on my face, but it gives me an immersive experience. I think that will evolve too.”

Matheny noted today we are in a clunky world where “You either have to have this bespoke sphere environment that’s built or you have to wear these goofy goggles.

“But I think that’s going to continue and you’re going to have different types of experiences, that are ultimately enabled by this notion that I can have better compression, I can have better network connectivity.”

He made note to say it’s not just one technology but a combination of different technologies which is making these innovations all possible.

Over his nearly 10 years at the NAB, Matheny says there are three pillars they have focused on: “advocacy, education and innovation.” What is essential for the organization is working together as a team, “not just internally as staff, but also with our members, and the way that we pursue an advocacy agenda. But we also do something like NAB Show where we provide global level education not just to our members, but also, to the entire media and entertainment industry.”

Matheny plays a significant role in innovation, not just passive innovation, but actively getting in and doing things to help encourage innovation. “We do a lot of research and development and early-stage engineering projects to explore what some of the possibilities might be.”

With their global consortium of members from Japan, Europe, Australia, and many others they look at operating systems like Android Automotive.  He said of the technology, “[It is] supposedly going to be adopted by many different automakers. We looked at how is the radio going to function in this new operating system.”

The most important note Matheny made about his work was, “Through NAB’s innovation initiative, to say we’re going to develop real, frameworks and software and ideas that can be adopted to make sure that broadcasting prospers in the future.”

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