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Triton Digital SVP Daryl Battaglia Knows We’re Still in the Early Days of Podcasting

“Podcasting has been around technically about 20 years, but it’s still new.”

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A photo of Daryl Battaglia and the Triton Digital logo
(Photo: Triton Digital)

Tens of thousands of podcasts are relying on Triton Digital to build their audience, maximize revenue, and streamline their day-to-day operations. From technological innovations to providing data on who is streaming your podcast and/or radio broadcast, Senior Vice President of Measurement Products & Strategy Daryl Battaglia plays a pivotal role.

“[I am responsible for] understanding, the profile of the audience, who the listeners are, and helping to create products and provide those insights to the publishers,” Battaglia told Barrett News Media over a Zoom call.

The information Daryl Battaglia provides is key for those who, create and distribute that content to help sell advertising. But it’s not easy, new technologies are making it harder to measure audiences.

“There’s so many different places that you can consume content and so being able to measure all of that you are no longer able to rely on, ‘We’re going to record a sample of 10,000 people that will reflect the population.’ You may only have a few people who were listening and watching one particular piece of content and that’s just not enough to rely on samples.”

Another issue with getting data? Third-party listening platforms. “A lot of the listening comes through third-party platforms. So a lot of that means that these are not registered, logged-in listeners, or telling you who they are. You have some information about where they’re located, what type of device they’re located on, and what IP address are they on, but you can’t fully understand from that data alone.”

Key questions for those gathering data include, “What are the demographics of these listeners? What are the purchase behaviors/shopping behaviors of these listeners? And how many unique listeners are there, within any particular segment of the population?”

Without this data, it’s more difficult to know who you are marketing to and what type of advertisers you need. “Because listening can occur on any third-party platform, [our] measurement has to include different methods to help fill those gaps.”

One of the really good pieces of what Battaglia and his team are finding is that podcasting is growing, in more ways than one. “What we’ve seen across markets is typecasting. The audience is continuing to grow and the number of listeners is continuing to grow. The types of segments of the population that came to podcasting, in particular early, now that’s diversifying, growing, and growing. And so we’re seeing other segments of the population, women, and older listeners, for instance, that are now growing and catching up.”

With the data Battaglia and his team have gathered, he noted listeners for podcasts are, “still younger than the general population. It is also more educated, higher-income people with a lot of purchasing power, which is particularly appealing to advertisers. So it’s not getting older per se, but it’s becoming a medium that appeals to everyone. And so those that weren’t early adopters of podcasting are now catching up.”

Battaglia does have some ways to gain more information on who’s listening but it requires a lot of work.

“Part of what needs to occur with that is to filter it back to only those records that should be counted as legitimate listening. So there’s things like machine traffic, that exist within the data and we use a variety of methods to be able to clean that data. We collect data from a variety of different sources for different plants of ours, and we kind of normalize all that to make it similar and comparable.”

Sometimes the team will input this data into their own or a third-party software product to analyze it better. But the team at Triton Digital has gone above and beyond that creating their own products.

“For instance, with podcasting, we have a Demos+ product to help understand who the audience is for each podcast. We use a combination of that big data that I mentioned previously, along with surveys of podcast listeners that we do help understand them better and we help produce estimates and really know who the audience is for each podcast out there that we measure.”

Today, Triton’s clients include iHeart Audience Network, Salem Media Group, Christian Broadcasting System, and 1,800 others who operate in over 80 different countries. Another part of their focus is “making today’s audio better and tomorrow’s audio possible” with technological advances.

“Podcasting has been around technically about 20 years, but it’s still new. And there’s a lot of data, reporting infrastructure, and tech that needs to be created in order to make the marketing work as seamless as possible.”

But what makes the numbers trustworthy?

“A lot of rigor regarding the methodology and the review of the data. The expertise that you develop from working with that data and detail level. Industry standards matter as well,” Battiglia went on to note. “In podcasting, we have the IAB Tech Lab podcast guidelines for which Triton has been audited and certified. That helps for sure. Additionally, transparency regarding how you’re doing [your research]. For instance, we put our methodology, description, and documents to make that clear. [Also] just being consistent with that over time helps to build that trust.”

While Battiglia uses all this tech to help on the back-end of podcasting he doubts we will hear an AI voice coming to the airwaves. “I’m not an expert on AI. I know it’s capable of many things but there is such a uniqueness to some of the great content that gets produced. It’s hard to believe that any sort of machine can do that … There are some other things that maybe only a human can do that are just unique. Things of one individual’s imagination.”

For those of you looking to use your imagination and take your podcast to the next level, Battaglia believes there is no golden rule on when it’s time to monetize your product.

“Some podcasts are better geared to a broad audience base and have the potential for big audiences. Other podcasts may be more specialized and may not be big audiences, but may be different, and important for a select segment of the population. Even those can be monetized with advertising and sponsorships that are directly catered to towards that type of audience.”

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Can Elon Musk Use X to Revolutionize Presidential Debates?

More substantive debates could be held on platforms like X … with live questions from actual voters across the country. No networks or commercials needed.

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A photo of Elon Musk and the X logo
(Photo: Getty Images)

While the media missed out on a historic opportunity last Thursday, 11 million people tuned into X — the social media platform owned by Elon Musk — to watch Robert F. Kennedy Jr. debate… himself.

Streamed from Los Angeles in front of a live studio audience, Kennedy & Company watched the debate live occasionally pausing the actual debate to give the Independent candidate a chance to speak.

While the innovative X debate allowed Kennedy to explain why Americans shouldn’t vote for Trump or Biden, he failed to bring up how his policies are better. What he did do at the very beginning of the debate was allege CNN colluded with the Republican and Democratic parties, which is why he was not on stage.

Thursday’s debate between President Biden and former President Donald Trump was the first not put together by an independent non-profit. Meaning CNN owned the debate. They commercialized the debate.

Perhaps this is why CNN threatened X owner Elon Musk with a lawsuit if the Kennedy “debate” took place. As of this writing, it’s yet to happen. However, there are several ethical concerns if the 24-hour news network should be allowed to. Though televised debates have been around since the 1960s the opportunity to transition these debates to a streaming or digital service could provide better options for the viewers’ freedoms.

Modern Presidential debates haven’t been around for very long but they have proven important for candidates to grasp hold of undecided voters. The first radio debate was aired in 1948 when Republicans Thomas E. Dewey and Harold Stassen went head-to-head in the presidential primary.

Eight years later, Democrats one-upped the GOP by televising their 1956 presidential primary debate. However, it wasn’t until the famous Kennedy-Nixon debate in 1960 when we saw two confirmed presidential nominees hit the airwaves, with 66 million viewers. Compare it to CNN’s 48 Million [rounding up] plus an additional 11 million from Kennedy’s debate, that’s only 59 million viewers. Our population has grown, yet fewer Americans are watching our potential Presidents debate.

After 1960, Americans waited 16 years (four election cycles) before we saw another televised presidential debate for the general election. It was 1976 Ford vs Carter. While the 1960 debate was sponsored by the news outlets, from 1976 through 1984 debates were sponsored by the League of Women Voters.

In 1987, the group dropped out of sponsoring presidential debates, releasing a statement that said in part, “because the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter. It has become clear to us that the candidates’ organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity, and answers to tough questions. The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public.”

The Commission on Presidential Debates was formed and took over for the League of Women voters. Since then we’ve seen not one but two independent candidates hit the debate stage.

Before Ross Perot in 1992, John B. Anderson hit the debate stage in 1980, but only against Ronald Regan. President Carter’s campaign declined to debate the Independent, even though Anderson was polling at 22%. Ross Perot was polling at 18.9% when he ran. Kennedy is not far behind, with three different pollsters having him at 15%. (Yes, Ralph Nader tried to crash a debate but he never made it in and was only polling at 5%, hardly enough to make a dent into his contemporaries.)

The businessman with a famous last name has a large social media following largely comprised of Latino and young voters. In theory, he will have an easier time gaining traction with voters through social media, provided the algorithms allow exposure.

Modern media outlets have a unique opportunity, one the League of Women Voters  (and our founding fathers) would’ve loved to use. Give voice to other parties and candidates along with Republicans and Democrats. More substantive debates could be held on platforms like X, Facebook Live, and YouTube with live questions from actual voters across the country (instead of carefully curated questions in years past). No networks or commercials needed.

This election cycle, X (along with vigilante owner Elon Musk) is taking advantage of this by giving Kennedy extra exposure/airtime after being left out of Thursday’s debate. If other modern media outlets will follow suit remains to be seen. However, instead of bowing to our two-party system, social media has the opportunity to give the country more options, like George Washington wanted.

“[Political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.”

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Radio Doesn’t Have to Have a Cloudy Future

Do we have any other stories to tell that will bring broadcast radio to a top-of-mind position as one more choice in a world with so many media choices?

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photo of radio switchboard

Recently, I read a note in The Free Press (the online one, not the Detroit newspaper) that mentioned one can now earn a master’s degree in “degrowth.” Outside of being voluntary, degrowth sounds similar to the US radio industry in the 2020s. After getting past the initial incredulity that a university would actually offer such a degree, I looked it up. It’s real.

The degree is offered by UAB. No, not the University of Alabama-Birmingham, but the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona. And yes, there is a master’s degree program in Political Ecology Degrowth and Environmental Justice. If you’re interested, it’s taught in English, takes a year of your time, and will set you back just under 4,000 euros. I’ve not been to Barcelona, but I’ve heard it’s a nice city.

The university suggests that while this degree will not lead to doctoral studies (heaven forbid!), you might be able to obtain work in areas such as public administration, environmental justice organizations, or cooperatives, among other potential employers. 

The program is run in cooperation with an organization known as Research and Degrowth International. The group defines “degrowth” as “a multi-level voluntary path towards reduction of production and consumption…”. RDI is also a big fan of Palestine and Gaza, the latter of which is certainly well into the process of degrowth.

That’s why this struck me as a useful degree for entering radio management. Certainly, the industry has not been growing for some time, in other words, radio is “degrowing”. Why not hire some people that specialize in the field? 

To support my assertion, I was working on a presentation for my current class at Western Kentucky University and came across this chart.

You can see that radio revenue was essentially flat from 2013 through 2019. COVID did a number on the business in 2020, but the rebound in 2021 did not return the industry to the revenue levels of the 2010s. S&P Global and Kagan, the sources of the data, suggest that revenues will decline slowly through the rest of the decade, and this includes digital.

We’ve seen all the layoffs, RIFs, cutbacks, and in a few cases, licenses being turned back to the FCC. It’s not just commercial radio as some of the biggest public radio operators have reduced headcount, canceled programming, and taken other steps to get their financial houses in order as well.

When I’ve been chatting recently with friends in the business, I’ve said that I should write a column with the headline “All of These People Can’t Be Stupid”, in other words, if everyone is hurting, it’s highly unlikely that all of the radio CEOs are all clueless idiots. Any industry that can still generate around $15 billion of annual revenue is not dead but is not headed in the right direction. It’s degrowth.

What to do? Last week, Fred Jacobs offered some concrete ideas in his blog. Fred’s not the only one with ideas that might steer us in the right direction, but it strikes me that our lack of promotion is hurting us. 

My summer class at WKU is Emerging Technologies. While I was a dope to take a graduate class that crams 15 weeks into five, it’s been interesting. The subject of my paper and presentation for the class (which is web-based, by the way) is AI in radio and I’ve had to learn more about how AI is being used in the business.

Last year, there was a lot of ruckus about “AI Ashley”, a cloned version of a jock in Michigan doing middays in Portland, Oregon. When you look up AI Ashley on Google, you’ll find all sorts of stories about her and the use of an AI jock. How much publicity did KBFF receive (oddly, KBFF is known as Live 95.5, but AI Ashley is a real live person)? How many people around the country saw or read a story about a radio station? 

Do we have any other stories to tell that will bring broadcast radio to a top-of-mind position as one more choice in a world with so many media choices? What can we do to promote our medium more, regardless of how individuals access it? And while we want to promote it to the people who control advertising spend, wouldn’t a greater profile locally and nationally wake some of them up? As I noted in a recent column, we have all the studies, we know that audio advertising works, but that doesn’t seem to be changing the chart above.

If we can’t change the story, perhaps we should have UAB’s website add that holders of a masters in degrowth may have options in traditional media (without the left-wing baggage that comes with the degree although Uri Berliner might suggest a public radio gig). All of print is in degrowth, linear TV is headed that way, and if we don’t come up with new ideas and act on them, radio won’t be far behind. 

Let’s meet again next week.

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Grading CNN Anchors Jake Tapper and Dana Bash During First Presidental Debate

Tapper and Bash faced charges of political bias leading up to the debate. Did they dispel those notions Thursday night?

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A photo of Jake Tapper and Dana Bash
(Photo: CNN)

It’s been touted as the most anticipated debate this election season. The first Presidential debate of 2024 was a Hail Mary toss for CNN, yet they landed short of the end zone.

It’s the earliest debate ever held. Neither candidate is technically on the ballot in any state (because they are not yet the nominees of their party). It is also the re-match most people in America did not want and the media is failing in it’s duty to be the fourth estate.

In the first debate where mics of nonspeakers would be muted, it was not surprising both candidates had multiple clipped answers. It’s good because it showed that their audio technician is human but it also showed they muted mics equally and without prejudice.

What was ridiculous was both Biden (46) and Trump (45) stepping over each other on 46’s golf handicap. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Dana Bash or Jake Tapper to step in and get the two elderly statesmen back on track. Yet, this is one of the many examples of the pair failing at their moderator duties.

The first three follow-up questions were all to Trump. In fact, 45 was asked the same question significantly more than Biden. It’s not from Trump lacking an answer and Biden providing perfectly coherent responses. It’s from a failure of their journalistic duty.

The point where Bash failed was when she asked “If [Trump] will accept the results of this election?” 45 answered that question the first and third time she asked it. However, if she had been listening, Bash would have heard the first time Trump answered it. This gives left-leaning outlets a chance to say he didn’t answer the question fully. It also provides them an opportunity to praise Bash for “pressuring” Trump.

Conversely, Tapper missed two opportunities to pressure Trump on key issues (likely because his answers could have picked up some moderate left voters). The first: If Palestine should be a recognized country. The second: What would [Trump] do to make child care more affordable?

There were several instances where Biden did not answer a question, fully, completely, or coherently. However, instead of asking the same question again — like they did with Trump — they asked a follow-up question. To Tapper and Bash’s credit, they both noted when each candidate had time left and asked a second question (provided the candidate answered the first question to their liking).

While both moderators tried to “refocus” Trump on certain questions, neither of them tried to refocus Biden when he did not answer (or stumbled through a response).

A most notable failure? Tapper began asking a question (moving on from the January 6th topic) when Biden raised his finger asking for rebuttal time. No, Jake! This showed your bias. You began asking a question. This means it’s time to move on. Not allow Biden to rebut Trump. This is Tapper handing the debate over to Biden and not maintaining control.

Speaking of moving on, CNN (and all other outlets) need to move on from having commercial breaks. It is ironic and symbolic because it shows how the Presidential race has become more of a commercial enterprise than a public service (which is what our Founding Fathers intended our government to be: public service). Other outlets could have seized the opportunity to review the debate.

All the major outlets aired (their own, not simulcast) commercials during the break. The only people to benefit from the commercial breaks were media suits. It’s a sad day for journalism when what should be a service provided to the American public was manipulated into a profit machine for large corporations.

However, there was one major failure of CNN which came before the debate. In 1992, Ross Perot (I) joined President George H.W. Bush (R), and then-Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton (D), on the debate stage. It marked the first time ever three people had shared the stage for a Presidential debate. True American politics at work. This is what our system was designed for.

Yet, independent candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was nowhere to be found on this debate stage. While CNN claims he did not meet the qualifications to participate, his campaign says neither did the other candidates (because neither is technically on the ballot as they have not yet been nominated by their party).

In May, the Kennedy campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission but to no avail. It’s ironic the debate that takes place on Ross Perot’s birthday is not allowing a third-party candidate to participate. Kennedy instead held a real-time debate on X.

Biased “journalist” media outlets have lost integrity and self-respect. Plus drinking games and bets on which President would poop their pants on live tv first. Yes, the 2024 Presidential debate featured exactly what the other 99% of Americans feared: evidence that we are hopeless to the broken system and biased outlets that used to make our Democratic Republic so great.

Regardless of who wins in November (I hope it’s none of the above), we Americas and the American Media need to put our bias aside and unify as a country, something CNN moderators Dana Bash and Jake Tapper did not do. Supporting the President — regardless of party — is extremely important because if the President fails so does the country. We need a media outlet to unify the country. CNN is not said outlet.

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